CITY GOVERNMENT
OFFICIAL PROCEEDINGS OF CITY COUNCIL
SAVANNAH, GEORGIA

PRESENT: Mayor Eddie W. DeLoach, Presiding

Aldermen Carol Bell, Julian Miller, Brian Foster, Bill Durrence, Van Johnson, Tony Thomas, John Hall, Estella E. Shabazz

Rob Hernandez, City Manager

Brooks Stillwell, City Attorney

Jennifer Herman, Deputy City Attorney

The regular meeting of Council was held this date at 2:00 p.m. in the Council Chambers of City Hall. The Pledge of Allegiance was recited in unison followed by the Invocation by Alderman Carol Bell.

A RESOLUTION OF THE MAYOR AND ALDERMEN OF THE CITY OF SAVANNAH AUTHORIZING THE MAYOR TO SIGN AFFIDAVIT OF EXECUTIVE SESSION.

BE IT RESOLVED by the Mayor and Aldermen of the City of Savannah as follows:

At the meeting held on the 4th day of January, 2018 the Council entered into a closed session for the purpose of discussing  Personnel and Litigation. At the close of the discussions upon this subject, the Council reentered into open session and herewith takes the following action in open session:

1. The actions of Council and the discussions of the same regarding the matter set forth for the closed session purposes are hereby ratified;
2. Each member of this body does hereby confirms that to the best of his or her knowledge, the subject matter of the closed session was devoted to matters within the specific relevant exception(s) as set forth above;
3. The presiding officer is hereby authorized and directed to execute an affidavit, with full support of the Council in order to comply with O.C.G.A. §50-14-4(b); 17
4. The affidavit shall be included and filed with the official minutes of the meeting and shall be in a form as required by the statute.

ADOPTED AND APPROVED: JANUARY 4, 2018 upon motion of  Alderman Bell, seconded by Alderman Shabazz, and unanimously carried.

Approved upon motion of Alderman Bell, seconded by Alderman Shabazz, and unanimously carried.

Approved upon motion of Alderman Bell, seconded by Alderman Shabazz, and unanimously carried.

Alderman Shabazz: Mr. Mayor, in reference to this particular item and the details it is in reference to an approximate amount of a new bond issue of $14 million for work to be done in the vicinity of West River Street to include River Walk Extensions, public elevators, and other streetscape and hardscape improvements. I need some clarification on these approximately $14 million of bond issuance. If the City Attorney could expound a little bit more for me.

Attorney Stillwell: Yes if Council will recall a couple of years ago when the projects on the west end of River Street I think it's 250 to 300 million dollars’ worth of projects were being developed. The City had two major public infrastructure deals that we wanted to do in conjunction with those projects. One was to extend the River Walk from its existing end all the way down to basically the end of the Kessler Project that's a major extension. Secondly, the City wanted to create and has had a long term plan to create a second major access to the Riverfront Plaza from Bay Street and now the only elevator that goes down there as you know is next to the Hyatt Hotel on Bull Street. So, we had a plan or the City had a plan for several years to put an elevator and walkway, much enhanced pedestrian access on the west end of the street now in the Montgomery Street area. So, in conjunction with the construction of the Rockbridge Hotel Project, which is adjacent to where that walkway is going to be, the City agreed that it would pay for the walkway and the elevator improvements to get down to the river. But it was more efficient to have the Rockbridge Hotel Company actually do the construction because the elevator is attached to their hotel just as the Hyatt Hotel has an elevator attached to it further to the east. Likewise it was more efficient to have the Kessler Group construct the River Walk improvements and then convey them to the City as built for a fixed price rather than have the City do the construction in the middle of their construction project. So the City entered into development agreements, I have forgotten exactly but I think it was 2014, to do those two projects and to fund them with bonds. And it's important to recognize that the two projects are going to produce property tax increases for the City substantially in excess of the amount of money that's going to be required to pay back the bonds. So these are self-liquidating bonds from the property taxes that are going to be raised from the projects. So it's a win, win for the public. We've been wanting to build that additional access on the West End for many years and of course the public is always trying to get the River Walk extended as much as possible. So this will not cost the taxpayers any additional money. The money will be produced by revenues from the project. I'm sure all of you recognize and the public ought to recognize that with this extension of the River Walk that's going to be completed with this money in addition as you know there's a SPLOST project to build a River Walk extension around in front of the Marriott Hotel. When those projects are completed within the next couple of years the River Walk will extend up almost from the GPA’s property on the west end all the way almost to the Truman Parkway running through the Savannah River Landing. So, it will be a terrific project at many, many decades in construction as all of you know.

Alderman Shabazz: Thank you Mr. City Attorney but personally what my concerns are and I really have some really deep problems with this. I agree with the improvements that you were just discussing that we really need in this area. But it's just the funding sources and how the funding mechanism is being brought about with this $14 million bond issue issuance. The source of my concern and my problem with this is that the source of funds to construct and acquire these improvements have been identified as bond proceeds from the Downtown Savannah Authority from a particular series of 2018 that is tax exempt bonds issued to be secured. This is the part that really concerns me that these bonds have to be secured by the City of Savannah. So, I have always since we've been talking about this and I just wanted to let the public know the reason why I'm going to vote no this is because I still have really deep concerns about the whole funding mechanism of how all of this has been constructed and I still stand on that particular thought. Thank you Mr. Mayor

Mayor DeLoach: I need to speak on that because it's a difficult thing for Council and Mayor to work towards getting something done when people switch horses in the middle of the stream. This is not something that happened on our watch. It originally happened in 2014 when Kessler approached the then other Council which you were a part of and asked for these extensions and some other things along with Rockbridge. And we all here in this group including the one that’s got the concern about it all agreed that yes, based on the development that we were going to do down there, we all agreed that okay that's what we're going to do. And so my issue is we need to make sure if we have a problem with something let us know in advance. But whenever somebody is down the road with you on an issue it's difficult to back up after you've already committed yourself to a bond issue based on what the previous Council along with our Council all agreed was a great project for the City of Savannah including everyone who is up here that voted on it originally. That is my only concern here. I don't want to do anything other than say it's difficult to work with issues whenever people move from one side to the other after we've already voted in favor of moving forward with these bonds.

Alderman Shabazz: Mr. Mayor just to remind you and the public is that the initial vote on this project which took place in the previous administration there was one part and only one part of this that I was concerned about and was in agreeance with is that some of the or a particular developer was going to be hiring some of the residents that live close to the development. Other than that and even in the previous administrations and it will be great to have our Clerk of Council Office pull the minutes for you and any other member of City Council to hear my opinions on this because I've always had an opinion on this and with the exception of probably one vote I've always voted no. So, this is not anything new and not changing anything in the middle of the stream. So, I've always had this opinion.

Mayor DeLoach: Well I'm just going back to the fact you voted in favor earlier and now you have decided that it’s different that's all. So, I’m not going to bother it anymore. I’ll let it go but just my point in all this is.

Alderman Shabazz: That's what I'm saying you can go back and see my votes, my votes have been no.

Mayor DeLoach: I beg to differ on that but we will look back. Please do that.

Alderman Shabazz: On one vote in 2017.

Mayor DeLoach: We will look back and I'll bring it back up.

Alderman Shabazz: But other votes after the initial vote I have voted no on these issues.

Alderman Johnson: Mr. Mayor if there are no other comments on this matter I move we close the hearing.

Alderman Hall: Second.

Alderman Bell: Mr. Mayor before we vote on it we need to move item 46 which is just the announcement of the intent to issue the bonds that’s the only thing I wanted to say.

Attorney Stillwell: Mr. Mayor. Just to clarify the record there we need to open that DSA bond issue thing for a public hearing if there's anyone that wanted to comment on it.

Mayor DeLoach: If there’s anyone who would like to speak concerning that please move come forward.

Alderman Johnson: Move to close.

Alderman Durrence: Second.

Alderman Thomas: Discussion. I don't want to prolong the earlier conversation but I think it is important for us to explain to the public. I know that my colleague Dr. Shabazz has some issues with this but the reality is that 2014 is when we decided to do this but we actually were talking about this prior to that. This was something that we had entered and knew we were going to do and the $14 million that was committed was committed in anticipation of us playing a part to make all of this happen. The Kessler Development and the Rockbridge Development and I think if you look at the amount of money I think it's a 320 to 330 million dollars of development between those two groups. That's a significant amount of infrastructure, private infrastructure and private investment, that was being made that ultimately we only seeded $14 million which we will recover and we will put in the Grand Roman Steps that we talked about down there and all of the great improvements and what they're doing. So, I differ a little bit than with my colleague on it, but I respect her position. I do think these are self-liquidating bonds so this is a much different bond than what we issued on the opposite side in which for a decade we sat on it and paid a million dollars or more for bond interest or whatever it is that we had to do. So, I think if we were presented with another opportunity of 300 million dollars more in private development and they wanted $10 million in self-liquidating bonds I would ask each of us to jump all over that as many times as possible in order to make that happen because I do think that this is a significant, this is a lifetime achievement. This is not just a little building going up. This is something that will become part of the character of this City. So, I think this is a great opportunity for the City. And no disrespect to my colleague down there, but I think differ on this one.

Attorney Stillwell: Mr. Mayor if I could add one other thing just to what I said earlier. It is important for the public to know that City does not spend public money on any private part of any development. The money the $14 million is all being spent on public infrastructure, for a public River Walk, public access to the river, public elevator and so forth that will be owned by the City.

Alderman Johnson: Well I think you just have ultimately the reopening of public space that has been denied to this City for years. And the reality is if the City is not a partner in this it doesn't happen. It's in my district so obviously the development opportunities there, and obviously opportunities for employment, opportunities for options, and the other accoutrements that this project brings you know to me make it worth moving forward on it.

Hearing closed upon motion of Alderman Johnson, seconded by Alderman Hall, and unanimously carried.

Alderman Thomas: Mr. Mayor on items number 4, 5 and 6, item number four is a motion to rezone 10421 Abercorn Street and 0 West Magnolia Avenue from PUD-B-C to B-C, item number five is motion to rezone  207 and 210 West Magnolia Avenue from PUD-IS-B to B-C and item number 6 motion to rezone 10501 Abercorn Street from P-I-P to B-C.

Attorney Stillwell: We're holding one public hearing for all three items since they're adjacent properties in the same use.

Marcus Lotson: Thank you Mr. Mayor and members of Council. Relative to Alderman Thomas' comments these six really properties are one petition and the petitioner who is the property owner is bringing those forth for a request to rezone. The petitioner is requesting a zoning map amendment for these six properties which comprise approximately six and a quarter acres and are located on the west side of Abercorn at the intersection with Magnolia Avenue. These properties currently have three different commercial zoning classifications, the applicant is requesting that each property receive the B-C zoning designation which is the predominant classification for commercial uses and this portion of Abercorn Street. The subject properties are developed with an automobile dealership and associated accessory uses as well as a retail shopping center. The applicant’s intent is to renovate the site for the purpose of expanding the auto dealer. This use is permitted currently and is legally operating, but it will be more appropriate from a zoning standpoint to unify the zoning designations on these properties. The requested B-C zoning designation is appropriate for the site and the Planning Commission has recommended approval of the petitioner’s request. I should mention also that the petitioner has had a continuing dialogue with the adjacent residential property owner and I'm sure he can speak to that in greater detail. The Planning Commission is recommending approval of the rezoning for the six properties.

Hearing closed upon motion of Alderman Thomas, seconded by Alderman Bell, and unanimously carried.

Approved upon motion of Alderman Thomas, seconded by Alderman Foster, and unanimously carried.

Hearing closed upon motion of Alderman Thomas, seconded by Alderman Bell, and unanimously carried.

Approved upon motion of Alderman Thomas, seconded by Alderman Foster, and unanimously carried.

Hearing closed upon motion of Alderman Thomas, seconded by Alderman Bell, and unanimously carried.

Approved upon motion of Alderman Thomas, seconded by Alderman Foster, and unanimously carried.

Hearing closed upon motion of Alderman Durrence, seconded by Alderman Johnson, and unanimously carried.

Continued to the meeting of February 14, 2018, upon motion of Alderman Durrence, seconded by Alderman Johnson, and unanimously carried.

Alderman Durrence: Mr. Mayor, discussion on this. We continued this last time for the parties to meet. Did they come with a resolutoion?

Alderman Shabazz: They did meet on this. Well our City Attorney has been very diligent in trying to get the parties together. In reference to all of the details that our City Manager and our City Attorney has been working on if it's appropriate at this time Mr. Mayor, I would like to make a motion to approve the petition for 17038 to declare surplus and sale of section of the Gateway Boulevard West.

Alderman Hall: Second.

Dana Braun: Mr. Mayor and Council I'm Dana Braun, I represent the Housing Authority of Savannah and Harold Yellin represents the adjoining property owner. Mr. T.J. Hollis here represents Atlantic Housing Foundation. This is a joint venture between the Housing Authority and Atlantic Housing Foundation. And yes we met last week, Mr. Stillwell conducted a meeting in his office and this morning we've reached an agreement with the adjoining property owner. MPC staff made a recommendation that we acquire the right away from the City of Savannah and that we reach an agreement with the adjoining property owner about easement issues and we have reached an agreement whereby that easement will be reduced to writing and there will also be an alternative for them to be able to relocate that easement across the property that is presently owned by Atlantic Housing Foundation and will be ultimately owned by the Housing Authority of Savannah. So this is, just briefly, this is a 270 units of workplace housing that is going to be constructed through this joint venture between the Housing Authority and  Atlantic Housing Foundation to provide much needed housing for employed persons in that area. There is plenty of jobs in that area but very little workplace housing and this fits in with the City's purpose of creating affordable plans.

Alderman Thomas: Good to see you back in here. Can you give us kind of an outline of what affordable housing means and what the requirements of people that get these units will be.

Dana Braun: Yes. Personally I shouldn't. I'm sorry. This is Ken Clark, who's the Director of Development Services for the Housing Authority. This is all, there are 276 units and this of them 270 are low income housing tax credit units, which means that they are devoted to persons whose income or families whose income are 60 percent or below of area mean income, which for a family of four means that the earnings need to be less than $39,000 a year. So a family of four with a single bread earner that bread earner could earn up to $19 or more than $19 per hour and live in these apartments. So that's the intent to provide those persons who are working who are basically barely getting a living wage to have an affordable place to live and to keep living.

Alderman Thomas: Are there guidelines and maintenance standards and all.

Dana Braun: Oh yeah. This is in order to get the low income housing tax credits, we have to get the Department of Community Affairs approval. There are serious lenders involved. There is a bond issuance involved with this. There are so many eyes and standards on this and funds set up on reserves for maintenance through compliance with the federal and the state regulations for the tax credits.

Alderman Shabazz: The other good thing about this development is a really good development that's going to be taking place in the west side of Savannah. It's growing Alderman Thomas and I both, we see our districts growing leaps and bounds in that area. And with the Chatham Area Transit they have an existing bus line that exist, that goes out to that area so that those persons who may not live in that area but surely will be able to get to work in the area and that’s good. But those who will be living in the housing development they will be able to use the transit bus line that exist there to move back and forth in their community for employment. It's going to be, well right now it's a nicely wooded area but the development that I've seen through our City Manager and in particular with Mr. Heath Lloyd who have met with myself and all of these parties to is ensure that this would be a good fit for the City of Savannah in which it will be for our citizens and those who will be moving to Savannah. The other good thing about this is there's a great financial impact for the City and for our General Fund which will be approximately $100,000 for our General Fund. So this is a good thing and a good sale that I see that's good for our City.

Alderman Bell: Mr. Clark, is this the first of its kind in terms of this development or do you have a similar development in any other part of the City?

Ken Clark: Well, it's not the first low income housing tax credit development that we've participated in. So, it's not new but it is an opportunity for us to partner with another non-profit to bring a development of this scale and impact in this nature.

Dana Braun: Many of the units at Ashley Midtown which is the old Savannah Gardens/Garden Homes that you see from the Truman Parkway. Many of those are low income housing tax credit units that were developed between Housing Authority and a developer in Atlanta called Integral. It’s the same with Sustainable Fellwood some of those are low income housing tax credit units. Those are ones that the Housing Authority have participated and there are others throughout Savannah that the private developers have done without the Housing Authority.

Alderman Thomas: Is that what these will look like?

Ken Clark:  No, actually it’s a different plan altogether.

Alderman Thomas: Do we have schematics of what it would look like?

Ken Clark:  We did not bring.

Alderman Thomas: Are they individual units or are they apartment looking units?

Ken Clark:  They will be 12 units per building, again 276 units. That’s kind of conceptually how it will be configured.

Alderman Bell: So they’ll look as good as Ashley, because we like Ashley.

Alderman Shabazz: So what I’ve done to the Aldermen and Mayor, I know that our concerns is surely after they are built that the maintenance is kept up and Ashley Midtown I know that is one of the apartments and complexes that we have standard that we can actually see that we'd like for the maintenance and the upkeep and well-being to be that standard or above with this particular unit. And I voiced that opinion very strongly to these developers.

Alderman Hall: First of all I want to congratulate the Housing Authority for the well-kept Ashley Midtown because that is immaculate at all times and we kind of boast about Ashley and we boast about Savannah Gardens, the new Savannah Gardens, and we boast about that because we are proud. We bring people through the GMA Georgia Municipal Association and they want to see housing that we've done in the City and we set a standard others around the state to duplicate what we're doing. So if they will look half as good and as well maintained as Ashley Midtown then I wholeheartedly welcome that and I will definitely support this initiative.

Ken Clark: I can say that the development partner here again is a non-profit developer, Atlantic Housing Foundation. They have a management arm and they've developed and managed a number of properties across the country and just finished development up in Charleston, South Carolina as well so they are very high standards as a management company and as a developer as well so we can expect very high quality work.

Alderman Miller: Thank you Mr. Mayor. I think I heard this but I’m not sure because I heard conflicting things. Is this going to be a mixed income development or is it going to be predominantly...

Ken Clark: It will be predominantly low income housing tax credit funded or 270 units will be tax credit units and 6 will be market rate units. So, from that standpoint it's mostly a tax credit property. There is some bond financing so there are different funding sources and capitals.

Dana Braun: Those 270 units are capped at 60 percent of the area, meaning for a family of four in Chatham County or the standard area used for that medium income is about just under $60,000 or a little bit more than $60,000 so this is capped at 60 percent of that which comes out to about $39,000. So a family that earns more than that of four will not be able to rent the unit.

Alderman Johnson: Well I just wanted to point that out. There is a significant difference between low income housing and affordable housing as we talk about it. You're talking about low income housing.

Dana Braun: We’re actually talking about affordable housing.

Alderman Johnson: But because there are very clear specifications of what that is. This is something that is not generally available to a great number of the population. You have some very clear qualifications someone can't just say well I want to live here. No you have to be under a certain cap.

Dana Braun: And the rent is capped so that it is affordable.

Alderman Johnson: Affordable but in the context that if you make above a certain amount you're not eligible for it, so I just want to make sure we're very clear about that. You know and obviously we need that as well there's been some comments made about you know Ashley and I’ve had some questions about Sustainable Fellwood’s Management but we’ll talk about that offline.

Alderman Thomas: I guess I've got a lot of questions on this. One, I understand the purpose and the mission and I know that we all want to play a part and be a part of affordable housing, but when you make statements 12 units per building, 270 are low income, 6 are market rates, that's very concerning to me. This is a border district, me and Dr. Shabazz are very close in this area as it's expanding and everything. I've not seen the first schematic or anything on what this is supposed to look like. So, I'm going to ask that we table this for two weeks or continue this for two weeks in order for us to get schematics so that we can all see what we're looking at because whatever is built there is going to be left with us when the company goes back to Atlanta or wherever. And I mean I don't know anything about this company and how well they do. But I am completely bothered by the fact that I have not seen the first schematic in here about 12 units per building development in an area like that that's growing out there. And then the explanation Dana of $39,000 and six at market rate, 270 low income. Well low incomes being tossed around affordable, it's bothersome to me. I need to see what this looks like before I make a decision.

Dana Braun: We have some schematics, we don't have actual renderings of the buildings they're going to be two story buildings. They're laid out over this property. There's a pool. We'll show you that schematic, we have it here.

Alderman Thomas: But I want to know what it looks like, how we expect it's going to be maintained. You know what condition. When we talk about Ashley, we herald Ashley Midtown as what we like and what we are proud of. Is this going to be like that? Have we seen it? Have we seen what they’re proposing? I haven't seen the first thing and I think any member of this Council that votes on that, that hasn't seen it is literally voting blind on a dream that we may not be able to control once it's done.

Dana Braun: The development plans have been presented to the MPC. They recommended that we obtain this right of way, abandoned right of way. I mean the City has this roadway going through there that has been abandoned for years, it's just being used as a junkyard.

Mayor DeLoach: We’re not questioning what we have.

Dana Braun: The point is, I promise you and you take it for what it's worth. The requirements under the Georgia Department of Community Affairs and the Federal Low Income Housing Tax Credit Program are onerous regarding maintenance and the funds that are set aside. I'll be glad to share with you the finance documents that show the large sums of monies that are being put into reserves for maintenance of this property. We can't get these approvals without it.

Alderman Shabazz: I am fully aware of Mayor and Aldermen, my colleagues that there are time constraints. But I do appreciate and I do agree with my colleague up here in reference to and I know that you all need to move on it. I know you all wanted to move on it because of the bonding situations and the finance and the funding sources. This may put you in a little bit of a bind and getting and moving forward but I do agree with my colleague here that the rest of Council needs to see some renderings.

Alderman Bell: So Dana, if we delay it two weeks how will that affect the project?

Dana Braun: It would kill it.

Ken Clark: We’re on the tail end of the project.

Alderman Thomas: You know what, well I'm sorry that you're here to saying that. Because you know first of all I am not going to vote for this project today. And that's what I'm calling it right now, 12 units per building is a project. And I'm not going to vote for this project today without seeing what it's going to look like, and hearing about how it's going to be maintained and I'm sorry the legwork wasn't properly done prior to this, but I should have been able as a Council member especially in an area so close to my district to be able to see exactly what is being proposed out there. You're talking about building, putting 270 units, 6 at market rate in this district. I just don't agree with that. I mean, and I'm telling you, I want to see what it looks like. I want to see exactly what the expectations are of the people that are going to be living there and how it's going to be maintained. I want to help people, but I don't want to tear or destroy an area by a project that we don't even know what it looks like.

Ken Clark: And so just to be clear again, it's just a dense apartment community that's not any different than any other market where it's just a dense apartment unit.

Alderman Thomas: Now see you just said something different, a dense apartment community.

Ken Clark: And I'm trying to clarify something.

Dana Braun: Mr. Thomas this property is 70 some odd acres. So we're talking about 270 units over 70 something acres, it's about four units per acre. We have a schematic showing the layout of the building.

Alderman Thomas: That’s twelve units per building, that’s not four units per acre.

Dana Braun: Can I say something? This is 12 units per building, they’re two story buildings. They're not major walk up three or four story buildings, they’re spread out all over this property. It's been designed and these designs have gone to MPC. They didn't have an issue with the designs, they recommended that we obtain this right of way. The project isn’t up here, it’s an issue of the right of way that's before this body.

Alderman Shabazz: Let me finish this up so we can go ahead and move forward. All right now this project is in my district.

Mayor DeLoach: Van is next. Thank you

Alderman Johnson: I have one question and it’s quite simple. Attorney Braun you said that there are similar types of initiatives that the management company has done across the country. So is there something that we can see, something that could be sent to you? We can put this to the side and come back to it at the end of the meeting or something so that we can get a visual. I mean because in the areas I serve where there are low income housing I mean it comes to mind it might be four to eight per building you're saying this is 12. So I think what Alderman Thomas is saying you know we just have the responsibility just to be able to see it, to get an idea, to get a feel for what this looks like. Is there some type of project somewhere we can Google it?

Dana Braun: Mr. Clark can pull it up on his iPad similar to what they did in Charleston.

Alderman Johnson: Mr. Mayor. Can we just move on and come back?

Mayor DeLoach: Time out. We’re going to let Estella call the question.

Alderman Shabazz: Thank you Mr. Mayor in reference to this item I would like to because it is in my district. Thank you Mr. Mayor. I would like for us to make a motion to approve petition 170398 to declare surplus and sale of a section of the Gate Way Boulevard Project at this time.

Mayor DeLoach: I’m going to amend that motion please. To say that the paperwork in front of us before the meeting is over that satisfies Tony I think you’ll have the votes. But if you don't more than likely you won’t have the votes to carry this. So I think we need to make some effort to move in that direction otherwise you will come up short. So that being said I make a motion we hold this until the end of the meeting and bring it up as the final item on the agenda.

Alderman Shabazz: Wait a minute. I need to understand what’s going on here.

Mayor DeLoach:  Okay let's vote on the amendment.

Alderman Bell: You made a motion but there was no second so it died.

Alderman Shabazz: There was a second. Alderman Hall seconded the motion.

Alderman Hall: I am actually ready to vote on it.

Alderman Johnson: Well I guess my concern is that you know I would like to vote for it but...

Alderman Shabazz: There was a second. I made a motion and there was a second.

Alderman Johnson: I would like to see it.

Alderman Shabazz: It’s the rule.

Mayor DeLoach: But I amended that motion.

Alderman Thomas: We’re being asked to vote on something that none of us have ever seen. None of us know anything about it other than what the Attorney is standing there with the Housing Authority, saying other than Dr. Shabazz. I mean and the reality is this, is you know Dana can come up here and say it's 276 units over 70 acres and it's only 4 per acre but it's 12 units per building and you know what are you going to do with all the land Dana? Are you going to use all of this land for this one development or are you warehousing this land for future expansion?

Dana Braun: Well there is no intent to future expand over the rest of this land.

Alderman Thomas: Then what are you doing with all the land?

Dana Braun: Some of it is wetlands and it's not our intent. We've been approved for this by the Georgia Department of Community Affairs. The designs have been approved by the Georgia Department Community Affairs. The City Housing Department, we've met with them numerous times they are all in favor of this development. There is an old abandoned roadway that runs in this. We could do this development without the roadway. It makes it a lot simpler and easier and that's what's before this body is roadway. May I finish please? We will pull up these photographs in a few moments, but we've been to MPC they are in favor of it. We've been with the Housing Department, they are in favor of it. We've met with the infrastructure persons from the City, they are in favor of it and we understand your concern about what this is eventually going to look like. But what’s before you is an abandoned right of way the City doesn't use this, it’s being used as a dump and we're asking that we take it over so that we can develop it properly and maintain it and keep it for the benefit of this apartment complex.

Alderman Thomas: How long has that process been going along?

Dana Braun: With the City, months.

Alderman Thomas: And in that time you could not have shared any kind of schematics or anything.

Dana Braun: Well not to be, Mr. Thomas we did meet with Alderman Shabazz and I think you could have met with us if you wanted to. We also to be up here two weeks ago and then we would have had time to address this if Council had made it known to us that these were their concerns about what are the actual buildings going to look like which we don't think is really part of this because the part of it is the roadway that the City no longer uses. It’s being used as a dump, it's in disrepair and we're asking that it be conveyed because we are now the property owner on all sides of that roadway. Which we have the right.

Alderman Johnson: Mr. Mayor. I'm just asking Alderwoman Shabazz just to give us, grant us a couple of minutes. I don't think we should be able to vote blindly. I think the Mayor was absolutely correct that we can go on with the rest of our business just give us a time to look at it. I want to support it, but obviously don't put us in a position where we're just doing this blindly without even seeing it. We want to support you just give us a couple of minutes.

Alderman Shabazz: Okay that’s fine.

Alderman Miller: Can I make a motion that we just move this to the end of the meeting so we can vote on it.

Alderman Shabazz: I second that.

Attorney Stillwell: I think if Council by consent agrees to not take the vote on your motion until the end of the meeting that would be entirely appropriate.

City Manager Hernandez: Just a quick comment. Just a reminder to members of City Council attached to the agenda report is an exhibit that displays the proposed site plan for Waters at Gateway.

Alderman Shabazz: Yeah and it’s everything that I've been looking at.

Mayor DeLoach: Yeah but does it have a rendering of the building?

City Manager Hernandez: No it does not include it, it’s just the site plan.

Mayor DeLoach: I think we’re interested in what it’s going to look like. I think we all are.

Alderman Shabazz: And what I’ve been looking at and what the City Manager and everybody else has been talking about is what we are voting on today, which is the right of way.

Attorney Stillwell: If I can make it clear what you are voting on.

Mayor DeLoach: I know what we’re voting on, surplus land. But if you don’t have that land it doesn’t go through right? Okay then we hold the noose.

Attorney Stillwell: That's correct.

Mayor DeLoach: We understand that. So we want to know what it looks like or we not gone pass it. That's the deal. Okay. It's not a big deal, don't make it a big deal. Just make sure Tony gets his information.

Alderman Durrence: The other party still hasn't had a chance to speak.

Mayor DeLoach: Let’s go on to the next item, we’ll come back around to it.

[Item 8 was postponed and returned to at the end of the meeting.]

Alderman Shabazz: Mr. Mayor. Back to item number eight so we can get out of here.

Mayor DeLoach: Tony did you see anything that makes you feel better?

Alderman Shabazz: The attorneys have a rendering that is going to be put up on the screens for us to see. This is the property that is currently located in Charleston, South Carolina. It will be the same development that's going to be built if approved. And I’m with the Council on whichever way we want to go with this out on Gateway Boulevard.

Alderman Thomas: We don't have a better rendering than that.

Dana Braun: Yeah there are several that were emailed. This is a rendering and I misspoke before, they're going to be three story buildings, not two. This is a rendering of what will be built at Gateway. We sent Bret Bell several more photographs. This is the only rendering we have, we have photographs of Charleston which is the same design that’s being used here. I don't know who's controlling these. There's a better picture of Charleston.

Ken Clark: Keep in mind this is still under construction. It’s right at the tail end of construction.

Alderman Thomas: I think you all picked the worst possible set of images to show.

Dana Braun: There are other schematics and photographs that we just emailed to Bret to show.

Alderman Thomas: Until he gets those loaded, Dana what are the amenities of this?

Dana Braun: This is one of the renderings of a section, there's a swimming pool, there's a leasing office and clubhouse that’s 4,400 square feet. There's a playground and pool house area, those are the amenities that will be provided. And let me explain, because I think there may be some sense of and I apologize for not explaining it. When we talk about workplace housing, for a two bedroom unit the rent is going to be $736 per month, a rent which is affordable. The average rents in Savannah are much higher than that. A family is going to have to prove they have one, they have the income cap a family of four I said is $39,000. But they have to prove from the other end that they have the ability to pay the $736 per month. So, this is for those of you who may think that this is going to be like a Yamacraw, or a Kayton Frasier not to demean those in any way. A public housing development, the average rent in those is probably about $20 a month. So, we're talking about $736 a month for a family of four who is going to have to be able to prove they have the income to pay it, but they're also capped so that someone is earning $50,000 a year they're not going to be able to live in there because they're above the cap. If someone is only earning $12,000 a year they're going to have a hard time proving they can pay $736 a month rent. So, you can see what income level this is designed for and that is where there's a tremendous housing shortage in this community that this Council has long ago recognized. The people at Nine Line have just built a major facility neighboring this property. They are gung ho about it. They are very gung ho that their employees can stay there and have easy access to their workplace. There is a necessity for this. This is what it looks like in Charleston. This is the better picture. This is what the office and this is what it will look like here. These are Charleston which has recently completed and still undergoing. That's the leasing office and you see the pools to the right of it. This is more of the same with the apartment dwellings. That is what we're building, intending to build. This is a shift in a new direction for the Housing Authority as the whole public housing program is being eliminated by HUD and that this is the way housing is going for workplace housing.

Alderman Johnson: Mr. Mayor. I mean again I get it, I see it, and I appreciate the pictures. I mean I think there people that are visual that need to be able to see it. You know obviously although we're just talking about the road for us you know I think we have a history in our City and across the country of creating hoods and I don't think we think anybody, we don't want to create another hood. And so for me where people live is important, the dignity of a home is important. So when you talk about density that gives me a better idea of what we're talking about. So I appreciate it Dana.

Alderman Hall: Can a trip to Charleston be arranged for a couple of us to look at it? Where is this located in Charleston?

Dana Braun: This developer has done some similar properties across the country. There is one slide that shows some images of the other ones. They came to the Housing Authority, we work with them, we selected them, and we have looked, not visited, but photographs and images of their other developments. The success they've had, and this is why the Housing Authority is participating with the Atlantic Housing Foundation. This is a legitimate developer of affordable housing and is doing developments across the country.

Alderman Thomas: I’ve got a couple concerns about something you just said. You just said a shift in the direction of the Housing Authority of Savannah when you were talking about this. Now what I'm really concerned about is that you know are we creating spaces or are we displacing poor citizens to areas that never had these types of developments before. Because this is a concern for me you're taking this area where this is going, it has never seen this type of development quote unquote affordable housing and you're taking folks out there that sometimes have transportation issues and they're getting away from the core of the City where there are an abundance of jobs that are to them. Now you talked about Nine Line, great facility that they built on the Old River Road going towards the Old River Road, but this development is before you get to that and I don't believe unless CAT has changed its strategy that their running buses past 95 going west now. So, they might come to this development. But they're not going to take them to the door of Nine Line and drop them off that I know of. So, I'm really looking at this thing and I'm going to have to come and have a conversation with you because I'm a little concerned about that new vision of HAS. And I want to see what that vision is because if we're just displacing poor citizens of our community to other areas I want to know what the strategy is in order to truly serve those citizens.

Dana Braun: Ken Clark will address that but I assure you there's no displacement. If someone wants to voluntarily live here, and can prove that they meet the income requirements they apply for admission period. That's all that is done. There's no displacement by the Housing Authority of anyone. As I said earlier they have to have the income level to show they can afford this $736 per month rent for a two bedroom unit and it goes up from there for a three bedroom and a four bedroom unit. So it is not that anyone is being displaced. There are massive studies that have been done that have been presented to DCA for the need for this housing in the area. They wouldn't authorize, DCA wouldn't approve it, if there was already sufficient housing in that area. And there are jobs there you know the commercial-ness of that corridor 204 and 95. I don’t know how many jobs are out there but there are not residences nearby. So there are a lot of factors. This has been flyspeck and I can't tell you how many gigabytes, megabytes on my computer system of reports, of approvals from DCA, from HUD, from lenders involved in this who are participating in this development.

Alderman Shabazz: Mr. Mayor, I’d like to call the question.

Alderman Thomas: I have one other question where is your site in Charleston? I go to Charleston twice a week. So I want to go back and take a look. Before we call the question I want to make one final comment Mr. Mayor. First of all, it is crucial that we look at opportunities to do this. But it's also critical that we do it in areas that benefit the people that we're trying to serve and help. Now this core group of folks that's going to live in this 270, I'm not going to say the six because if they're, paying what is market rate for this unit?

Ken Clark: Those market rate units will be discounted so that the entire community will be at affordable rent levels. Those were just some numbers to be able to get the project done.

Alderman Thomas: Ken I mean one of the issues that I have and I mean I'm going to come and set up a meeting with you Dana because this new vision, new strategy that bothers me somewhat. And I understand I read your interview in Connect Savannah about this project and about affordable housing and the fact that you're from Atlanta with 20 years of experience and all of that dealing with this. Well you're described as a deal maker that you put these deals together. Well I appreciate that but at the same time I want to make sure they’re the right deals for these areas. The fact that this has never been done in this area bothers me somewhat because one I didn't know anything about it until today other than you know what y'all are showing me on the screens. Number two I just want to make sure that the deal fits for the residents that have to live also in that area. And something that we're not creating housing projects, that we're creating a different type of vision that people can truly prosper from over and so that that's very important to me.

Ken Clark: Let me speak to that real quick because you know the Housing Authority has always had the ability to serve communities on a wide range of income levels. And so when you talk about doing something different it's only different in the sense that we're starting to reach out to those who need workforce housing. According to HUD’s definition, low income housing serves individuals from 80 percent and below. So we're really talking about people in the $64,000 range and down. So we have the ability to help deal with the workforce housing issue as well. And so I want to be clear about the fact that none of these units here are Housing Authority sponsored units. We've just partnered with a non-profit developer to help create workforce housing in an area where that population is underserved. So, this is not a situation where we're moving individuals from our existing communities or those income eligible individuals out to this property. Anybody can come to this site based application process and put in an application of people down the street at the local motels down their hotels in that area. So, anyone can come and put in an application as long as you’re income eligible. So, this is workforce housing, we're just reaching into the toolbox to help provide housing for that population as well. So, this is not traditional in the sense that public housing communities are funded. We're actually using the tax credit equity to help produce workforce housing.

Alderman Shabazz: Mr. Mayor. I am going to continue to be the representative of the Fifth District and all of its citizens and those who will move into this particular housing unit and making sure that the quality of life of the citizens of the Fifth District are at a level of high standards. So, this particular unit will not be any different than any of the other parts of the district that I serve in and the higher standard of the quality of living will be maintained under my representations. So, I call the question and move that we approve this motion.

Approved upon motion of Alderman Shabazz, seconded by Alderman Hall, and carried with the following voting in favor: Mayor DeLoach, Aldermen Bell, Miller, Foster, Johnson, Hall and Shabazz. Aldermen Thomas and Durrence voted against the motion.

Alderman Thomas: I still need the address to the property in Charleston.

Ken Clark: 1053 Saint James Avenue, Goose Creek, South Carolina. 

No Action Necessary

Alderman Miller: Mr. Mayor. This number nine motion to adopt an ordinance to control abandoned shopping carts is one that's important to many of our less affluent neighborhoods where a lot of these carts are taken home and left there. It affects morale and aesthetics and the pride of the neighborhood. It's also important to the businesses that are providing these carts. It is important that everybody be heard on this. This is the First Reading of this ordinance so no vote is going to be taken at this point. However, it is important that we get it out to the public that we're about to vote on this in two weeks and that's the reason why I've asked to take the unusual step of discussing it at this point. It's something that we need go ahead and move on one way or the other. And I want to make sure everybody knows that this is our First Reading.

Alderman Hall: One short comment please sir. I want to thank staff for all the hard work they've done on this. This is a particular item that has been a problem in neighborhoods for quite some time and it's all over Savannah particularly in some areas more than others. And neighborhood organizations have been asking us repeatedly to do something with shopping carts that scatter the landscape. And right now with this ordinance we're going to put the onus on the merchant to retrieve their property from our streets.

Alderman Johnson: I’m just reminded there's no rule that says because it’s First Reading now that we have to have the Second Reading in two weeks. I'm in favor of a very aggressive City education campaign on this because I'm reminded that people don't just take shopping carts to joy ride. In my district they take shopping carts because they have no other way to get their groceries from point A to point B. So when you see them you see them around bus stops and you see them around things and we talk about things like food deserts you talk about things about transportation and where buses go and where things don't go. It's also offset of poverty and people not being able to do the things that we're able to do, we're able to take our groceries from a store into our cars. For a lot of folks they need groceries too they just have problems getting them to where it needs to be. So, I just wish there is some way we can engage Step up Savannah. We can engage some of these community action organizations to really talk about it as a social issue as well. And again we don't have to move on this in two weeks but provide enough time before we do this that we're able to have people to have some understanding of what this and what it’s about.

Alderman Miller: In response to that I'd like to point out that the City held two public hearings on this. The staff did an awful lot of work, they contacted all the stakeholders. They've had the discussions going on for quite some time. I don't see any sense in dragging it out any more. I think in two weeks that's plenty of time.

Alderman Johnson: I just remind you that those hearings were held at dates and times that were inconvenient for most of your real stakeholders that should actually be involved, and that’s the citizens.

Alderman Miller: All the holders were there at the meeting.

Alderman Johnson: You’re talking about merchants, I'm talking about citizens. But I'm saying that we don't necessarily have to vote on it in two weeks. I'm saying that we can actually do the public education part before it’s adopted.

City Manager Hernandez: Mr. Mayor and members of Council. Recognizing the concerns expressed by Alderman Johnson, we will work within the next two weeks to have additional stakeholder sessions within any Council member district. So, if you let us know if there is a particular group of stakeholders you want us to reach out to we're happy to do that between now and January 18^th. In addition, do we have any speaker cards on this Mr. Mayor?

Kathy Kazava: Thank you so much. I usually spend my time at the State Capitol and this is far prettier. My name is Kathy Kazava. I'm the President of the Georgia Food Industry Association and I represent the grocers across the State of Georgia.

Mayor DeLoach: Where are you from?

Kathy Kazava: I’m from Atlanta.

Mayor DeLoach: Isn’t it great to be down here though?

Kathy Kazava: Actually, who knew it was going to snow? We had 13 inches in South Cobb or in Cobb County where I'm from the other day, so it was it was really neat and then coming down here and seeing it. So, I'm just taking the place of Kroger. Mr. Mayor and City Council I appreciate the opportunity to be here today. Again I'm Kathy Kazava with the Georgia Food Industry Association. I represent everybody from the large grocery stores the Kroger's, the Publix, the Walmart's of the world, to the IGA’s, the Red and Whites, the Piggly Wiggly, so I have all the grocers and that's who I represent. One of the challenges I know for all of us in communities is getting grocery stores to come to areas. As you know we are part of the critical infrastructure we take that very seriously especially in storms when there is any kind of a hurricane or anything I mean we are one of the ones that get in there earlier to get back and to take care of the customers, so we really pride ourselves on being part of the community. One of the challenges for us and let me just say food deserts is, that that's a major issue across the state.

Mayor DeLoach: Now this is about shopping carts not food deserts.

Kathy Kazava: Yes sir, I'm going to get to why I'm saying that. I'm saying that because the same areas that have the problems with the food deserts those are the areas that are also having the problems with the poverty, having the problems with the shopping carts being stolen. So, with the regulations I just challenge you and caution you to, when you want to hold the grocers responsible I want to make sure that you're remembering that these are the same stores that you're trying to get into the communities. So, we don't want to overregulate the stores that you really want to come into the area. So, if I could say just a few things I want to thank first of all Margaret and the staff here has been wonderful about taking our issues and really changing what some of our problems are. I want to go ahead and bring forth just a few, I want to talk about the fact that we are so frustrated when our carts are stolen and they're stolen, there's no question. Now whether it's stolen because it's a poverty issue and they don't have a way to get their groceries home, which we totally understand. We really recognize and appreciate the fact that the City is going to go out of their way to make sure that you explain to people taking something off of property is stealing, it's stealing our property. So, we have a hard time with being held responsible when there are just people who are doing their best just to get home with the groceries. We have made many changes in the ordinance and working with the City that has been much better for the retailers. There are a few things that I want to talk about that need clarification. For example, the penalties right now the ordinance says that there is no less than $375 to retrieve a shopping cart. Now I want to talk to you about somebody like a Mike Jones with Red and White. What he does, he and his brother own the two stores, the Red and Whites, they go out on a regular basis and just pick up shopping carts. That's what, that's what they do. What he says is that because a lot of his customers don't have cars they go to the bus stops and they leave the carts at the bus stop. So what we want to make sure that we have clarified there's nothing in here that explains how much time they have now especially an independent. They want those carts, those are very valuable to them. They don't want those carts missing. As soon as they find out a cart is gone they go and pick up that cart. The problem is he says, carts go every single day, every day. So what we want to make sure that it's very clear in the ordinance is how many hours that somebody has to go get the cart. We had agreed to a 72 hour period, that's not in the ordinance but we had understood that that's where it was going. But I talked to Mike Jones and he just said he wanted to make sure of one thing. If somebody calls the City and talks to him says there's a cart automatically they go out and they go get the cart. The City, now there's 72 hours, the clock is ticking. When Code Enforcement walks by or drives by there's going to be another cart there potentially because the second or third cart has been dropped off there. So we just want to make sure that you understand that this is a constant challenge for us. We are really working to make this happen. There's a variety of ways that we can do it, everything from cart retrieval systems which cost over $50,000 per store. Independent grocery stores last year profit margin was point .93 percent. That's not a business that most people want to go into right now. So these carts are very important to us. We recognize it's a challenge for the City. We recognize it's a challenge for our grocers. We appreciate everything that you all do, the social media and the community just the PR campaign to make sure that customers understand that we can't have them taking the carts. I appreciate it and I'm here for any questions.

Alderman Miller: The reason we're doing this in two meetings is to make sure we have that kind of communication. So, I would like to ask if you get in contact with the City staff, let's make sure that we can address those. We don't want it to be something that business can't live with, we need the businesses. We also need to do something about the neighbor.

Kathy Kazava: I recognize that, yes we sure do. And we drove around for hours and coming down here and found all kinds of carts.

Alderman Foster: Did you make a recommendation? You represent most of the grocery stores we're talking about. Did you make a recommendation on what you would like to see done that was different from what has been proposed?

Kathy Kazava: Yes, actually. So many of the changes that we made recommendations to have already been taken place, so they're already in this ordinance, so that's wonderful. We just still need some clarification on penalty issues and want to make sure I think the most important thing to. We need your help to get the word out, that taking carts off our property that's stealing. It's no different from taking meat from the meat counter or produce from the produce counter. It's our property, we can't have you taking it. I understand it's a problem to get home. That's a poverty problem and whether we can figure out a way to work on that. I don't know that that's the grocer's situation or challenge to get the customers home. I'm just not sure how that's going to work.

Alderman Durrence: I just want to point out that this is a problem for CAT as well, because so many of these carts are left at the bus stops. CAT has a regular expense, an ongoing expense of picking these up as well. So any solution you come up with needs to include CAT as a partner in talking about it.

Kathy Kazava: And actually we do have some solutions and Glen Wilkins with Wal-Mart may talk about one thing that Wal-Mart is going to be doing. And we may be able to come up with a way to get those carts picked up cheaper than what you currently seem to have the cost of picking up. Maybe we can use the same service.

Thomas Beusse: My name is Thomas Beusse and I’m with the Georgia Retailers. I represent a lot of the same people that Kathy represents but I also represent other people that are part of critical infrastructure retail such as your Target's, Lowe's, home improvement stores, Home Depot particularly. We have a lot of the same issues with the ordinance. I want to thank you all for hearing us, I want to thank Ms. Williams for her help in this process. And Alderman Miller I know this is your issue and it’s very important to you and as you said when we met at one of the first stakeholder meetings that all the cheap and easy things have been done. And so now we have to do the hard things. So I appreciate your leadership as well. One of the issues that we have in this is that we feel that we're being punished for having our property stolen to a degree and it is under Georgia Law a specific misdemeanor, theft to steal shopping carts. Now we agree that as Kathy said we rode around today we rode around a couple of different neighborhoods. We did ride around for about three hours in our dog sled that we brought down from Atlanta which is really easy to get around in today, normally it's not. But we just ask for your partnership not only in getting the word out but maybe part of that would be to enforce existing state law a little bit more than we already have in the City. And I think that would also get the word out and you leave it to the discretion of the officers of law enforcement or code enforcement as to how they want to go about doing that. I think that would go a long way and I understand the difficulty of that and I understand the social implications of these problems. But I think that would go a long way in actually solving the problem that without doing that we may just be putting window dressing on the issues. With that I yield to any questions.

Mayor DeLoach: I know over in Europe they don’t seem to be all over the place. They seem to be on the property. There’s a coin you have to put in to get one. Have y’all explored that?

Thomas Beusse: I know that the grocery store chain Aldi uses that, but they're not a member of mine. There's some in Atlanta they're expanding, they are a European chain. In the way that the ordinance is written, one thing I do appreciate Alderman Miller allowing for is in the cart retention and retrieval plan that you have to keep on file, it's a lot more broad and given retailers a lot more leeway than we originally had. And that's one of the things at their disposal because we lose money when these carts are stolen. And that's very important to us at the same time to implement these systems as Kathy said, they cost a lot of money. So, if you're asking a store that's in a underserved neighborhood that's even though it's a big corporate store it's doing its best to stay profitable and stay in business. And if you ask it to take a $60,000 hit to put in an electronic system maybe that doesn't work for them. Maybe they can go to a coin system so there's a lot of leeway in there of how individual businesses can do that.

Alderman Miller: In response to what you said at our first meeting when we met I did appreciate your attention there. You had suggested that perhaps the police file charges, but in these situations the police don't file charges, the stores file charges and at the time I understood that it was something the stores weren't interested in doing because you're filing charges against your customers. Has that changed?

Thomas Beusse: I don't think that's changed but I think that if you see someone pushing a shopping cart down and as we talked about in the first meeting that you have a lot of discretion as to how you want to engage that person and you can decide whether you want to or not. The question that you asked at the first meeting if I remember right is that if law enforcement did that then would the store show up and prosecute the charge? That's going to depend on the individual store. I think that you have some of your smaller stores that maybe have more flexibility to do that. And I think that's an individual corporate policy, I can't answer that is as the representative of the association.

Alderman Miller: Okay then let's ask the City staff to look at that. But you understand the position it puts the City in.

Thomas Beusse: I know it's a hard position, because I know that you look at the neighborhoods and I'm sorry on the holidays you guys are here. But I understand where this is occurring and I understand the reasons why people are taking them and we're trying to work with you as best we can through this whole process and I think we can find a comfortable answer. But I do understand the difficulty of enforcing those state laws.

Alderman Hall: Mr. Mayor. We embarked on this back in 2013 or 2014 and it didn't go anywhere. I think Pete Shonka’s office sent out a memo to merchants and it didn't go anywhere. I think right now what we're doing now we have got your attention. We have got your attention and we want you to work with us. All these stores that you represent have loss prevention programs, is that correct?

Thomas Beusse: Yes sir.

Alderman Hall: Why can't this be incorporated in that loss prevention program?

Thomas Beusse: In many ways it is. It's just it's hard to notice every cart that's getting carried off.

Alderman Hall: Hold on, you have people working the front end of the grocery stores?

Thomas Beusse: Yes sir.

Alderman Hall: Why can't somebody monitor what goes out of that front door. This is an easy fix for y'all. But you're making it hard.

Thomas Beusse: Can I answer the question? They are watching what's going out the front door and that's products that they've been purchased in a shopping cart that's been provided for complimentary use. So are we supposed to let people just take the cart as far as the front door?

Alderman Hall: No, not complimentary use, they have to have something to put their groceries in as they’re shopping but that's not complimentary. But you have a responsibility and I haven't heard that from any of you yet. What is your responsibility from keeping your merchandise from being stolen? We have people in there to keep one from shoplifting. What's the difference in what comes out of that door that cart?

Thomas Beusse: Well the cart is, you know we don't require a deposit for a cart to be used. It is provided complimentary. It's nothing in state law or any ordinance that says we have to provide those carts, they are provided for our customers' use. We want them to have them.

Alderman Hall: We don't mean to be punitive in these actions, we want attention.

Thomas Beusse: Yes sir. I’d say you got it.

Alderman Hall: I'm going to or you’re going to have to come up with a game plan on how you will protect your property.

Thomas Beusse: Yes sir. I think that's what this process is about.

Mayor DeLoach: We are truly looking for answers. We're not looking for kicking it down the road so y’all got to get with the staff and come up with something that satisfies you or we’ll come up with something that might not satisfy you so I would say get with the staff and get us something that works for you. And we talked to CAT about putting the bus stop at the stores. Why not have the bus stops at the store? So they don't have to go very far with the cart to unload if that’s the big issues that we have regarding that would help.

Glen Wilkins: Good afternoon Mayor and Council it’s good to see a lot of familiar faces here. I do appreciate you guys taking the time here. I do appreciate Margaret Williams of course for the time that you took to speak with us and hear our concerns. My name is Glen Wilkins, I'm a Director of Public Affairs Government Relations for Wal-Mart stores. I represent Georgia and Alabama, do a lot of the development. I think I probably met a lot of you before as well. But let me address the question that you had Mayor, specifically about the quarter that goes in some of those stores that's charging our customers to use it, to use that cart. A lot of times our customers come they don't have a quarter in their pocket.

Mayor DeLoach: No, no, no. I don’t buy that. You train people to do the way you want them to do. They will figure it out. I've been married long enough to learn that.

Glen Wilkins: We are creatures of habit. So that is one thing that we have looked at and one thing that we have discussed. I believe that education is absolutely important. How do we operate more efficiently? How do we operate better? At the same time back to your point how do we educate our customers and let them know that when you take a cart off the property those are dollars going out of the P&L, the profit and loss out of the store. It's got to be recouped somewhere. Therefore it could possibly come back on increasing in cost, an increase costs on products that they're buying in the store. So, it's how do we make sure that we're getting the lowest cost for your prices so we can better serve the community, let's keep product on the you know the carts in the parking lot as well as product on the shelves. Some cases we actually have a bus stop in front of our Supercenter on Abercorn

Mayor DeLoach: How does that work?

Glen Wilkins: It's great. We pick up a lot of shopping carts out in front of that bus stop. We understand that's going to happen we know where they're going to be. We did take a drive around today. We went and we looked at some of the other retail shopping opportunities around us. We found a lot of our carts over there, as a matter of fact one retailer had taken the opportunity to use our carts as their carts.

Mayor DeLoach: It does save a lot of time and money on their part to be able to use yours.

Glen Wilkins: Well yeah it does. They absolutely love having our shopping carts there. The interesting thing is if you have their facility here, we're across a major street. There's an apartment complex over here. So people are taking our carts wheeling it across this busy intersection behind their shopping center and then using a cut through into the apartments. So a bus stop or not isn't going to help us in that situation. It goes back to educating folks. Hey let's keep it on, let's find some opportunities for us, maybe we need to have you know the little rolling carts if we were able to sell those. I know Ms. Williams you brought that up as an option sell that because maybe people shop more frequently. Not as big a basket things like that. We know there are a lot of opportunities. Again we are looking into options to have cart retrieval, we have looked at the electronic system around the stores. We have that in some of our stores. The good and the bad about that is if people want to cart they’re going to take a cart. It doesn't matter. They're going to go across that, they're going to lift it up, and they're going to push that buggy until that mechanism breaks and they got a cart. We find a lot of broken carts in other areas where we have this that are off property because they either lift up and wheel or they break it off. Sometimes we actually have a case where it lines the perimeter and into the drive aisles it makes it unsafe parking and driving situation for customers coming in. So there are a lot of issues, we are working on the issues. There's answers out there that we don't know yet and I think that's the great part about having community folks working through that.

Mayor DeLoach: We appreciate that, we’re going to wrap this up. Thank you a lot. In 2013 they were talking about this. We are now in 2018. What we're looking for in two weeks is a solution or we'll have one so y’all get it done.

Alderman Thomas: I think what the Mayor just said is the key to this whole discussion. Alderman Hall kind of insinuated it but the Mayor said it I think as plainly as it can be said. Y’all have to find a solution within two weeks and if you don't the Council and the City staff will emplace a solution on you. I think that is as fair as possible. Now I'll tell you this, you and I, and I appreciate everything, we've had some great dealings with Wal-Mart, but at the end of Shawnee and Middleground Road there has been a mass of shopping carts that's been sitting there for over a month. I go by them every day just to see if you know if they're being moved. So, to say that we go out and get our carts, y'all must be blind because between Family Dollar and Big Lots and the Wal-Mart y’all have got a mass of carts that are sitting over there right in front of Georgia Southern/Armstrong now, that's been sitting there for a month and nobody's picked them up. Now we had an old man that testified or told us or told some of us that he goes out in his truck and he picks them up and he brings them back to the store and they normally give him like 50 cents or a dollar and they were trying to negotiate with him this time about saying that was too much that they wanted less. So, I don't know maybe if y’all go and get into the private sector and find some entrepreneurs that go out, want to go out there and get these carts up you know I don't buy the argument that it's too expensive to put in machines because all over Europe you'd put a Euro in and when you would take it back it would give you a Euro back out. So, if you take your cart back it's refunding your money so it's just holding it as collateral while you're using it. So I think the Mayor said it as fair as possible y'all got to find a solution, so y’all need a caucus among yourselves or in two weeks we’re going to do something.

Alderman Miller: We really do appreciate your participation.

No Action Necessary

Alderman Durrence: First Reading on a Motion to Amend Article A, Chapter 1, Part 7 of the Code of Ordinances to Add Section 7-1031 A to Restrict Deliveries by Large Trucks Within Parts of the Historic District. We are not voting on this today this is just the First Reading I did want to make a comment that we’re going to be having a workshop about this to learn a little bit more about the details of it.

Ordinance read for the first time in Council January 4, 2018, then by unanimous consent of Council read a second time, placed upon its passage, adopted and approved upon a motion by Alderman Bell, seconded by Alderman Durrence, and unanimously carried.

Ordinance in its entirety on file in the Office of the Clerk of Council.

Ordinance read for the first time in Council January 4, 2018, then by unanimous consent of Council read a second time, placed upon its passage, adopted and approved upon a motion by Alderman Bell, seconded by Alderman Durrence, and unanimously carried.

Ordinance in its entirety on file in the Office of the Clerk of Council.

Ordinance read for the first time in Council January 4, 2018, then by unanimous consent of Council read a second time, placed upon its passage, adopted and approved upon a motion by Alderman Bell, seconded by Alderman Durrence, and unanimously carried.

Ordinance in its entirety on file in the Office of the Clerk of Council.

Ordinance read for the first time in Council January 4, 2018, then by unanimous consent of Council read a second time, placed upon its passage, adopted and approved upon a motion by Alderman Bell, seconded by Alderman Durrence, and unanimously carried.

Ordinance in its entirety on file in the Office of the Clerk of Council.

Ordinance read for the first time in Council January 4, 2018, then by unanimous consent of Council read a second time, placed upon its passage, adopted and approved upon a motion by Alderman Bell, seconded by Alderman Durrence, and unanimously carried.

Ordinance in its entirety on file in the Office of the Clerk of Council.

Ordinance read for the first time in Council January 4, 2018, then by unanimous consent of Council read a second time, placed upon its passage, adopted and approved upon a motion by Alderman Johnson, seconded by Alderman Durrence, and unanimously carried.

Ordinance in its entirety on file in the Office of the Clerk of Council.

Ordinance read for the first time in Council January 4, 2018, then by unanimous consent of Council read a second time, placed upon its passage, adopted and approved upon a motion by Alderman Shabazz, seconded by Alderman Miller, and unanimously carried.

Ordinance in its entirety on file in the Office of the Clerk of Council.

Ordinance read for the first time in Council January 4, 2018, then by unanimous consent of Council read a second time, placed upon its passage, adopted and approved upon a motion by Alderman Johnson, seconded by Alderman Durrence, and unanimously carried.

Ordinance in its entirety on file in the Office of the Clerk of Council.

Ordinance read for the first time in Council January 4, 2018, then by unanimous consent of Council read a second time, placed upon its passage, adopted and approved upon a motion by Alderman Bell, seconded by Alderman Durrence, and unanimously carried.

Ordinance in its entirety on file in the Office of the Clerk of Council.

Approved upon motion of Alderman Johnson, seconded by Alderman Durrence, and unanimously carried per the City Manager's recommendation.

Approved upon motion of Alderman Johnson, seconded by Alderman Durrence, and unanimously carried per the City Manager's recommendation.

Approved upon motion of Alderman Johnson, seconded by Alderman Durrence, and unanimously carried per the City Manager's recommendation.

Approved upon motion of Alderman Bell, seconded by Alderman Hall, and unanimously carried per the City Manager's recommendation.

Approved upon motion of Alderman Bell, seconded by Alderman Hall, and unanimously carried per the City Manager's recommendation.

Approved upon motion of Alderman Bell, seconded by Alderman Hall, and unanimously carried per the City Manager's recommendation.

Approved upon motion of Alderman Bell, seconded by Alderman Hall, and unanimously carried per the City Manager's recommendation.

Approved upon motion of Alderman Bell, seconded by Alderman Hall, and unanimously carried per the City Manager's recommendation.

Approved upon motion of Alderman Bell, seconded by Alderman Hall, and unanimously carried per the City Manager's recommendation.

Approved upon motion of Alderman Bell, seconded by Alderman Hall, and unanimously carried per the City Manager's recommendation.

Approved upon motion of Alderman Bell, seconded by Alderman Hall, and unanimously carried per the City Manager's recommendation.

Approved upon motion of Alderman Bell, seconded by Alderman Hall, and unanimously carried per the City Manager's recommendation.

Approved upon motion of Alderman Bell, seconded by Alderman Hall, and unanimously carried per the City Manager's recommendation.

Approved upon motion of Alderman Bell, seconded by Alderman Hall, and unanimously carried per the City Manager's recommendation.

Approved upon motion of Alderman Bell, seconded by Alderman Hall, and unanimously carried per the City Manager's recommendation.

Approved upon motion of Alderman Bell, seconded by Alderman Hall, and unanimously carried per the City Manager's recommendation.

Approved upon motion of Alderman Bell, seconded by Alderman Hall, and unanimously carried per the City Manager's recommendation.

Alderman Johnson: I have a question. It's kind of an off handed one, but regarding item number 37. I know it's dealing with elevator servicing, but Mr. Manager and I've raised this question before, it's about elevator inspections. I know that the State conducts our inspections, however, I've continuously gone in City facilities where there are City elevators and there is an outdated inspection and I guess my concern is quite obvious. We don't control when the State comes, but obviously should something occur the first thing someone will say is we are outdated in terms of inspections. How do we address that? We don't have the immunity the State has, how do we deal with those issues?

City Manager Hernandez: One of the issues that we've seen, especially recently, I think within the last 45 days or so, where we became aware of something on social media that said the elevator wasn't inspected. The elevator was in fact inspected. We were just waiting on the State to send the appropriate certificate.

Alderman Johnson: Can we do something to make sure obviously we're in a capacity where we are enforcing things and so therefore I think it's kind of disingenuous if we're having these things that we don't have the proper paperwork. We need to have the proper paperwork.

City Manager Hernandez: So we can look at it and we want to make sure that whatever we need on file according to State law and maybe just putting a placard up that says this elevator has been inspected by the State on such and such date.

Alderman Johnson:  Or just if we need to when we have our legislative meeting or whatever we need to do to tell the State hey you know we need our documentation. You know obviously it's important to us and our citizens need to have the confidence when they get on elevators in our buildings and facilities that the elevators are safe.

City Manager Hernandez: What we'll do in the interim is just send a letter to the appropriate State department.

Alderman Johnson:  Thank you.

Approved upon motion of Alderman Bell, seconded by Alderman Hall, and unanimously carried per the City Manager's recommendation.

Approved upon motion of Alderman Bell, seconded by Alderman Hall, and unanimously carried per the City Manager's recommendation.

Approved upon motion of Alderman Bell, seconded by Alderman Hall, and unanimously carried per the City Manager's recommendation.

Approved upon motion of Alderman Bell, seconded by Alderman Hall, and unanimously carried per the City Manager's recommendation.

Approved upon motion of Alderman Bell, seconded by Alderman Hall, and unanimously carried per the City Manager's recommendation.

Approved upon motion of Alderman Bell, seconded by Alderman Hall, and unanimously carried per the City Manager's recommendation.

Approved upon motion of Alderman Bell, seconded by Alderman Hall, and unanimously carried per the City Manager's recommendation.

Approved upon motion of Alderman Miller, seconded by Alderman Durrence, and unanimously carried per the City Manager's recommendation.

Approved upon motion of Alderman Miller, seconded by Alderman Durrence, and unanimously carried per the City Manager's recommendation.

Approved upon motion of Alderman Johnson, seconded by Alderman Thomas and carried with the following voting in favor: Mayor DeLoach, Aldermen Bell, Miller, Durrence, Johnson, Thomas, Foster and Hall. Alderman Shabazz voted against the motion. 

Alderman Thomas: When we get an annexation petition, especially for something that's a half acre, I guess the reason that most of these annexations occur is for us to provide some sort of infrastructure.

Attorney Stillwell: I remember right in this case it's because it's contiguous to something else that needs it. I’ll have to check and get back with you later on.

Alderman Thomas: The reason I question that is just you know do the taxpayers collectively pay for improvements?

Attorney Stillwell: No.

Alderman Thomas: Or is it assessed per the annexed property?

Attorney Stillwell: Well it depends on what you're talking about exactly, usually it’s water and sewer.

Alderman Thomas: Well a half acre is really nothing.

Attorney Stillwell: They provide whatever tap-ins or whatever they have to pay for.

Alderman Thomas: That’s for running the line to there and all?

Attorney Stillwell: They have to pay for that. Thank you.

Alderman Shabazz: Mr. Mayor. I want to find out what district this is in.

Mayor DeLoach: Chevis is the County.

Alderman Thomas: This is in the 6^th. 500 hundred acres is one thing.

Attorney Stillwell: I'll get you the information I've forgotten exactly why. 

Approved upon motion of Alderman Hall, seconded by Alderman Durrence, and unanimously carried per the City Manager's recommendation.

Approved upon motion of Alderman Durrence, seconded by Alderman Miller, and unanimously carried per the City Manager's recommendation.

Announcements

City Manager Hernandez: Before Mr. Mayor you go to City Council announcements I'd like to announce that due to the weather forecast for the City of Savannah for tomorrow, the City plans to open at 12:00 noon tomorrow.

Alderman Johnson: Mr. Mayor if I can. And I'll just say it, I mean I just thought today you know there's still significant ice on the ground. I was telling someone I shoveled snow in Brooklyn last Saturday and I shoveled snow in Savannah yesterday, who would have ever thought? But there is still a bunch of ice on the ground, people don't know how to drive on them, they’re spinning out all over the place and I mean places you would not expect but people are just flying down these streets and there's no CAT service. So we have employees obviously that may not be able to get to work that are challenged. Schools are closed again tomorrow; the County is opening at noon. So just make sure our staff is taking the appropriate means. We want them at work. We want them to work safely. And I just think we need to be very careful about how to handle that.

Alderman Hall: Mr. City Manager in light of what Alderman Johnson said in your meeting after this meeting can we be as quick as possible?

Alderman Bell: So my quick announcement. I want to congratulate all of the University of Georgia Bulldogs out there on the National Championship.

There being no further business, Mayor DeLoach declared this meeting of Council adjourned.

The video recording of the Council meeting can be found by copying and pasting the below link in  your url:

https://savannahgovtv.viebit.com/player.php?hash=htPj6VtK4LnE